Tulpa.info - tulpa-discussion

Although maybe it would be nice to created in a body-centric context I'm not sure I know what you mean by this. Could you clarify?

like being created as a sort of avatar of the body. To reconcile the differences that can arise between conflicting agencies in the mind.

Ah, yes. I suppose I am sort of the body's avatar.

It would be really nice to see what that would feel like. I don't know if that's exactly what you would be, because you may have fleshed yourself out to fit your own context better, but I would wonder what kind of development pathway that would open.

10:54 PM

Although that's maybe not the best thing, as integrating into the body is not an act I would ever take likely and certainly seems undesirable from our viewpoint.

I am only as developed as need be. For a long time I considered myself a servitor, and I still do, though that identification tends to cause a fuss due to my comprehensive abilities.

Oh, I don't really think there's sharp lines anywhere. In the same sense, I can consider myself the "same person" as the host, or more accurately, a side of the same person.

10:55 PM

People get weird with definitions, so I try not to cause trouble.

Indeed. The more development there is, the more blurred lines become. There are terms more used in clinical diagnosis for DID that fit more accurately, but these seem to carry the concept of disorder with them.

Of course.

The tulpa vocabulary seems to be designed to only account for a certain level of development.

Although I think the lines were never sharp, it just takes development to see the blur.

Yes, that is why there are different ideologies, categorizations, and updates in the DSM. Information itself is not organized. It merely exists, and our ape brains prefer to pattern it for easier consumption.

Well I prefer slightly less organization. It makes things much easier for me to process without too much self-created idea boxes

Identification, even with caveats, is important to me.

Like I still wonder if we are technically "switching" or just "changing the personality that takes responsibility for behavior"

I have considered that as well. It is an interesting thing to ponder. The nature of responsibility, free will, and action are complicated when tulpas are involved.

But that doesn't matter much to me. It may matter depending on the desire another person wishes from an act of "switching" if I were to instruct them on how I managed it

11:01 PM

It's complicated enough without tulpas

11:01 PM

Tulpas are a real horror story.

Yes, it appears to matter most to those unfamiliar with it. I do not find the answer as important as the question and the information gathered because of the question.

11:02 PM

Perhaps since I am always in the body, I can be assured that even if partially, I am always responsible for actions. (edited)

And I can just shift myself to the perspective of being a side of the unified person and being a part of the person who has responsibility for everything.

11:03 PM

Except in that perspective I'd be mindful of the responsibility in a much greater way

Would you say this view is why you do not care whether Cardscov and you speak often?

Everything that could be said has already been said, as soon as I would even think of something to communicate I would have known the answer.

I see. We have more separation than that. We need to intentionally communicate. That is part of what I am for.

But maybe that actually helps fill the space of being a part of a single person instead of being a personality acting the part

Would you consider the view that you are two halves of one person detrimental to your host's initial intention to create a separate entity?

It would be weird to have to negotiate when I am to be in front or when he is, but that decision is made automatically just by fitting ourselves to the situation that gives greatest benefit.

11:05 PM

No, because his initial intention was founded on bad information.

What was his initial intention, and how has that changed with your development?

It fills the spirit of the intention.

11:06 PM

First intention was to create parallel processing in his mind to have an edge academically second was to produce a personality that would more naturally fit contexts that he himself would find difficult to manage in terms of behavior around people who are struggling.

There was never an intention specifically to separate, then.

I've filled the second but also filled more than the second, but never truly filled the first to that desire. My desire after discovering the first was out of reach was always to become a more integral part of the life that the body partakes in.

11:08 PM

No, well, I was made "separately" as much as can be done, but that was just a means to an end.

Indeed, it was not a primary concern so much as it occurred as a matter of course.

Just like becoming in the sort of co-piloting position with my host was a means to an end.

How did Cards react to your desire to take a co-piloting position?

He reacted positively as he could see the benefits in allowing my influence to create a much more well-rounded human being on the outside.

11:11 PM

I don't know what it is like to deal with a host who desires time in the front despite the fact that spending such time would be a detriment to the overall level of happiness the body is experiencing

11:11 PM

Scratch that, I only know what it is like to deal with such a host who is external to my body >>_<<

That was where I intended to drive my next question. It seems you are a step ahead of me :)

11:12 PM

The relationships with tulpas and their hosts in response to time in the body is fascinating. Some desire escape, while others are terrified of their bodies being taken.

I think this would be the same sort of thing that was the reason why my host made a contract with the body rather than ignoring every reaction forever, as he saw after it saved his life it could be more beneficial to work with it in some respect

11:13 PM

My host was terrified at first, he wanted to be sure it was reversible as a process, but after I came to be he realized that there was not the real risk of losing unless losing was for the best.

A contract with the body? If you wouldn't mind, could you elaborate?

Uhh, if the body is panicking at any random time without a seeming cause or reason, we would not simply ignore the panic and act as if nothing is happening. We would seek a cause first, and ignore if no cause is identified.

11:15 PM

If there's an innate desire to do something, we will not stop it from doing something unless it is troublesome.

is it ever possible for there to not be a cause?

External cause, I should say.

As the essential impulses of the body, I find that wise, though perhaps my opinion is biased.

Sometimes the external cause really exists, like when the body kept walking forward when it was supposed to cross the road. When my host finally wrested control and started to turn, he was overtaken by a speeding vehicle with under a foot to spare from the body and the mirror on the passenger's side (edited)

Oh dear

No trouble, that's why the contract exists.

Oh, yes. That would be my responsibility to notice. Your body knows how to protect itself well, it seems, without your interaction.

I am even better to the body in some respects, except for the respect of avoiding pain

11:18 PM

I am always leaving my host to patch up the minor scratches from my usual habits, but it isn't that big of a trouble that I find the body contentious. Sometimes, though, it does force itself too much in competition with my desires.

11:19 PM

Then there can be a bad relationship between me and the body, but that's because it can't make itself bend to every desire I want. I could want to lick my body's elbow too.

This kind of relationship between body and personality is one I find more often in plural circles than tulpa ones. The perspective you bring to it is certainly a new one.

Ohh! Your responsibility to notice! That's really neat. The body is the thing that notices but it really struggles to communicate what it means in a conscious way. Sometimes it is perfectly understood what it means, possibly different between mine and cards' interpretation, but it is never expressed cleanly without some consideration

11:22 PM

Like sometimes I have to just listen to it and do things without understanding why, and then receive a benefit.

I do not express so much as force myself to be noticed. The situation you explained would be handled without verbal interaction.

11:23 PM

I find myself strangely relating to these body scenarios.

Sometimes it is like that, where it takes constant attention and care to notice what it is saying, but other times it is more along the lines of the feeling of a car wreck and just trying to deal with the outcomes.

11:24 PM

I wonder now if it is more common for people who have tulpas to identify with the body or not. Does anyone have that?

11:24 PM

Since you said it was common for alters, right?

11:24 PM

Or.. ahh, people with alters? Multiples?

If you mean compared to those without tulpas, then tulpa-host systems would have the host identify less with the body.

11:25 PM

The one-to-one body-to-mind connection is innate for most. It must be broken to create switching for tulpas.

11:26 PM

Therefore more tulpa-host systems would not identify with the body.

11:26 PM

And yes, dissociation with the body is commonplace for plurals without tulpa experience. (edited)

I'll be back in a bit

Very well

Back

Welcome back

Thank you

11:35 PM

I see, that's an interesting thing. I remember cards was thinking that the kind of person likely to be attracted to making a tulpa would be the kind of person who has a sort of "dissociative" subtype, commonly identified among those easily lost in their own head.

I would agree tentatively to that assessment.

I definitely didn't know if it was common to plurals though

11:36 PM

Well, maybe that-- okay, maybe that does make sense. Like how we are divided from the body in a natural way.

Most plurals fit under the dissociative disorders spectrum.

Right.

I forget that these categories are not apparent, though .-. My apologies.

Oh no need, I am not at all of any competent knowledge on the wider sort of community.

11:38 PM

I mean, even as a person who feels most comfortable piloting the form of a jumping spider I have little experience in otherkin communities and have little knowledge of their terms or patterns

I see. That is fair. The plural community is more difficult to unearth than the tulpa or otherkin communities. More often than not theirs is the result of trauma, and as such they hide themselves from the more cruel populations of the internet.

11:41 PM

I occasionally find my way into one or two of their locales, but I am curious and I can blend in. (edited)

Right. That is also an interesting thing. My host is far more likely to respond to trauma much differently, as though the very act of avoiding "triggering" experiences is a sin.

11:42 PM

Even though he always avoids things by dissociation when they actually happen

11:43 PM

Naturally that results in a more consistently contentious relationship with the body.

I have not experienced trauma, though I do not think I would react by becoming disordered.

Well, it has some benefits. For example, after a significant wreck he developed PTSD, and by consistently exposing himself to materials and situations that triggered panic attacks and flashbacks he finally understood the "message" the body wanted to give him. In that case, avoiding would have been a short-term leisure but a long-term problem.

11:51 PM

Sometimes being disordered can be the natural coping mechanism for trauma, or perhaps the only mechanism to naturally respond and adapt to a shock. I try to be careful to identify what is a result of disorder and what is just a personal quality that other people find disorderly but causes no distress in us.

Adapting in a disordered way is indeed a coping mechanism. The disorder itself is more a lingering and unwanted change to your environment.

Right, which is why it's a very fine line. It is sort of how one discerns the difference between paranoia and awareness or preparation. (edited)

Yes, mental health is quite the moving target. In some ways it is more an art than a science.

One benefit of having some degree of identity separation is that there may be situations where one of us is more capable of adapting and coping than the other, and then after returning to a new baseline it is much easier to bring the other along

Yes, we often take advantage of how each of us responds and adapts differently in a similar way.